Hey Ya'll

NOTE: this is my (long) reply to a couple of TSCC fans that were discussing the show. Here is the thread link this came from; you can go back and review the discussion starting from this page, although there are some good replies - including by me - in the previous pages to this.

http://terminatorwiki.fox.com/thread/3510544/-?offset=20&maxResults=20

If you want to comment then leave a post here (below) or on the thread. Hope I don't incite a riot!

But I did manage to get a few things off my chest...I may not be right on all these points (these being MY opinions about this) but it if sparks some thought on your part, cool. Please reply if you feel compelled to do so!

[Please do not delete or erase the contents of this page, bc you are a blind, hater fanboy who can't stand anyone saying anything that runs counter to your own sentiments. I've had a happen once and it AIN'T cool! You can cuss me out all you want - you can even get JF to do so here if you can swing that - but you don't not have the right to censure me bc we don't agree.]

Hey ya'll:

The best thing JF did at the start of TSCC was build this family dynamic thing - then he threw it away with dark, emo, introverted, self absorbing (by everyone) in fighting. Sigh.

Transformers II had all of the mindless action and no plot and it made more money than T4 and ST reboot put together? Why, kids like mindless action (aka video games): that's what they grow up on noadays.

Let them remake 2001 A Space Odessey and see how well that goes over.

And it wasn't action that TSCC was missing. It was that JF felt - and got the other writers to feel as well - that somehow if you had action then you can't have drama, or intrigue, or tensiton, or emo (that is wortha damn). Which is a COMPLETE falsehood. But TackDriver, (sorry to pick on your comment bud, just using it as an example so pls don't get bent about it) this is something fans here have said over and over and over again.

This is FAR to simplified a view. Obviously the intent is to take a complex subject and take it down to the ridiculous - but it doesn't FLY.

My retort to this is to have you go to my profile page and click on the T1 deleted scene video.

http://terminatorwiki.fox.com/video/4167340/

It has action, is PURE "Terminator" (you ALWAYS get the sense of the epic threat of Skynet AND the impact JDay has upon the characters) and it has drama, tension, emo (in just the right doses) and yet - curiously enough - it doesn't have any gunfights, explosions car chases or even scary killer robots! Hmmmm. Premise blown away, by one James Mr. Cameron...maybe that's why JF despised his work so much, it got in the way of his own.

If JF had actually stuck to the T mythos I believe he WOULD have had a hit on his hands - and a major one to boot. Lost type audience numbers. He had all the right ideas but had no idea how to manage them well - or the show for that matter.

He not only abandaned the core T story - that is FAR better known and LOVED after the T2 period than T3...but he insulted anyone that was even remotely trying to get into this rendition...

Sarah had NO game plan. She gathered no intel. She had no back up plan - like, why the hell didn't she prepared for provisions IF Skynet was made and JDay DID occur? Like, all over the WORLD? Why didn't they recuit and finance their own minions?

Thjnk they couldn't have made a really good dramatic thriller action series? Well, how about IF the Conners had gone out and rob banks and pulled heists to get what they needed in their ops? Why not - they KNEW the world would be blown to bits anyway; might as well get as much done as they can to fight later - when humanity's demise is REALLY on the line!

What about hiring mercs and mafia and black market smugllers and gangs etc. none of who can be trusted and all trying to double-cross and find out SC's real motives etc - and Cameron having to keep them in check - by any means necessary?

What about a teen JC starting to feel the thrill and the power of growing up without social structure (off the grid) and becoming an experiences fugitive/thief/commando? Would he really have the moral center/compass he had now, or would he be hell on wheels with little to stop him from doing anything he wanted - without little thought of the consequence since he viewed the people he had to deal with as probably a corpse in the near future?

What about the REAL struggle between John and his mom? She can't let go of her own personal objectives (kill Skynet, keep John alive, not get caught, lead the Resistance until John is able to), and John's (get laid, get high - why not? - steal **** - justifiable enough under his circumstance - flex his muscles as an ever increasingly compentent black ops operative and hacker [causing him to take undue chances in SC's view as he thinks himself incapable of being killed before 2029] and their struggle for when the right itme is to pass the torch?...

What about action happening on a global scale - like in Alias?

What about having big bads from all over: FBI, CIA spooks, mercs, dictators, mob, gangs, drug dealers, corp CEO's, hackers, religious zealots, gamers, govt'ts...how'd you like to have a James Bond type on your trail, and he runs into Cameron?

How about John having Cam run well planned covert ops herself? Think we'd learn a bit more about her functions and capability?

I could go on, but I think you get the idea that this show just scratches the surface of possibilities. But no, I'll get the rebuttal that I think I can write a better show than JF. Well, just show him THIS and let him decide...bet anyone that is really a fan AND a writer would find these concepts sound enough to discuss. AEM you listening?

Not saying I have all the answers - or any that might get chosen for production and public distribution, but having TSCC pilot set in a.) a high school where the ONLY person that doesn't have access to an exposed JC IS SC (not that Cromartie wouldn't have just walked over and broke his neck - but that shouldn't have happened in T4 too - or tossed a live hand grenade); and a stationary house. Yikes. That is tactically faulty...unless you are shooting a sci fi 90210/Dawson's Creek. And yeah, this DID look like a Lifetime Channel chick flick soap opera B movie more times than I care to recall.

And to give you an "old school: perspective: T1 & T2 had guys all over the world saying "I'll be back" and singing "Bad To The Bone" and envisioning themselves as a motorcycle driving, sawed off shotgun toting, biker jacket and RayBan sunglass wearing BADASS!

TSCC completely MISSED that element, which even though it is not a major plot element, it IS one of the things that made the story POPULAR. Should JF have pimped THIS element? Hell yes! It is probably what 18 fans tuned in for; and not seeing that - decided to pass.

That Cam did get one later was cool, but too late, IMO.

Had she been an outcast wearing a biker jacket when John met her, not playing up to him, but actually picking on him BECAUSE he was quiet and introverted...her have a 'tude and also having a cover of a clique of bff's at that school that she had manipulated as cover...

...but then, as I said, the entire high school premise is flawed. But a lot more could have been done with it that was much more in the flavor of Terminator - and COULD have been done in a sophisticated fashion.
I don't know what else to say to you guys that can't seem to see these things.

I veiw what JF did to Cameron like having Clark Kent and you only have him become Superman every once in awhile. Would it get "boring" to see him change and go save the world EVERY ep? No!!! Why? Because that's WHY you tuned in to see THIS show. Duh!

You can't have Terminator and do something else other that what people know and expect of Terminator. It is a franchise that is 25 years old (that's a quarter century ya'll) and earned over a billion bucks. Its EARNED its position and respect. Everyone KNOWS its position - the LAST movie it made was powerful enough to make its star Gov of California - the 7th largest economy in the world!

Maybe JF could have "experimented" once he had established the TB version AS a hit and had proven his ability to create a consistent success. If he had given us a bit of "new" stuff, cool. Okay.

But he came right out of the gate and seemed to thumb his nose at what was known and loved - as if THAT wasn't good enough - and it was the REASON people were watching in the first place!

New (younger) TSCC fans don't count simply bc they came from somewhere/place else as the reason they came. SG. But the NUMBERS show 18 million started and only 3.5 mil stayed to the end. How many of THESE were REAL Terminator fans and not starstruck SG fanboys?
Now, to be fair, I was jumping for joy bc of the NAME OF THE SHOW - bc I have always adored Hamilton's portrayal of SC in both T1 and T2. So don't get it twisted, I had my own fantasy motivations. Liked anyone watch Alias for the plot!
So I can't blame thes new generation for how they feel. But I wish they gave a damn about the show that BROUGHT them SG as Cameron as much as they defend JF. Terminator came first!

Sure, JF invented SG. Was that original? Not if you've seen T3. But hey, Shirley played a killer robot in her Garbage James Bond 007 music video, so JF' borrowed that too. Okay, fine. He did a great job with these - until he back-burned Cameron - is own greatest creation! Wow.

and yeah, SG stole the show as River Tam on Serenity IMO. Young female robot Bruce Lee! Lena was HOT, sultry and edgy as hell in 300.

So that's three main's that have a cool background in other productions that played well into what made TSCC cool.
Making JC whiney like in T3? Not so much?

Having a TDE and it only had one use in the pilot and was no longer available to them? Not so much.

Not knowing what the plot was about for over a season and a half? Not so much?

Not know what the charaters were doing or why for the entire run of the show? Not so much?

Having a finale that completely destroys everything we know about the know T mythos? Not so much?

Having this written and produced by a lead writer and showrunner that was so bitter at his superiors that he ranted about it - after he himself admitted that they had warned him not to go in the direcdtion he chose - and had actually cancelled the show once but brought it back in the eleventh hour? Not so much?

BTW, wouldn't that have given anyone else a CLUE that, hmmmm, "maybe" they should revise their plan and go back and LOOK at what made the franchise successful in the past - especially since everyone knew a big blockbuster moview was going to be released from the same franchise whether you were tied to it or not? Wouldn't you want to find out what the winning formula was for the franchise and do THAT?

Well, many fans here will justify this by saying that they enjoyed what was done and JF was commendable for sticking by his guns on this matter. Maybe this is, but it is not sound fiscal planning. It didn't give him his best shot at success with this show. His ego was more important than the show;s survival, and that is what bugs me. That is why I wind up arguing with fans here on this point, that they don't see that they are defending someone who could care less what they thought - he was going to ride whatever HE wanted to do for as long as he could, and if he lost the show oh well...then he BITCHED about losing the show!

And peeps got mad at me for going on his blog and pointing this out! Hey, I wasn't gonna talk about dude behind his back: I put it there where HE could read with it and deal with it. But he never has. Too busy? Didn't deserve commenting about what happened (and we still don't KNOW what happened)? --How's that strategy working out for Tiger Woods?

And yo, I am critical bc I am ONE of the 3.5 mil that stayed BECAUSE they LIKED the show! And YOU may read this and not understand how someone can like something and ALSO be critical of it, but I AM. If that perplexes you then you know my frustration with JF and whatever it was that he was doing that was so far off base from what seems to make sense that I can't stand it.

A lot of other Terminator fans couldn't stand it either, and jumped ship off the TSCC boat. And now even those that did love the show, whith all its flaws and wierd experiments and lack of T mythos and continuity, have LOST the show, in spite of THEIR best efforts to save it.

Where are the stars and showrunners out there fighting to save their multi-million dollar jobs? How much support did ya'll get? I don't know the big time TV game so I don't know if contractually they could.

But it seems to me with all the politics behind just about everything I see with the Terminator franchise, the fans seem to care more about the franchise than the people that really make money from it.

Maybe they show offer it to the fans; you'd have to pass a "fan knowledge test" before you could buy shares...

lol. That's a joke - but I'm serious...

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NOTE: the following are sort of a "best of" comments that I responded to in the thread that spawned this one (in case you were to lazy to click on the proper link). At least you'll be abale to follow what/why I arrived at the main text of this page. My comments are in green text.

7.
"In the original BSG, the cylons were always machine like. So you can't say the cyborg aspect of Terminator came from BSG. You can say the machine terminator's may have been an influence, but not the human like cyborgs. In fact you could say that Terminator probably influenced the new BSG on the cyborg aspect of their story. "
Maybe. Maybe not. Consider:
Yeah, the Cylons as toasters walked around shining and easy to spot as a threat. But you either have to stick a guy in a robot suit (ala the first BSG) or do cgi (like the last one).

I seem to notice a pattern - that "aliens" tend to look or apprear amazingly like actors and actresses IN Hollywood: slim, lovely, fit, perfect hair and teeth ALL the time. Oh, and VERY well dressed. Great make-up too. Shoes? Please. They speak perfect English (even when trying not to) and know the "lingo" of our land (not counting Cameron...)

Why? Because its easier for Directors to CAST that way! So they do a quick "sales job" to get the audience to buy it, and then just move on with the story. These guys are "human" and these that look like humans are not. Easy enough to tell the difference - just look at the opening credits; we'll post who was who in the ending credits in case you were unclear. Thanks for viewing, come back next time. We'll be sure to give you another excuse for gun toting vixens with big mammory glands and lots of explosions with sparks casading around them as they jump for cover in the nick of time...write your own plot, we'll do the casting and a good time will be had by all (again).

Cater to 14 year old males much?

To quote Stan Lee: "'Nuff Said."

10.

"I recall that James Cameron said, on a talk show, that Space Odyssey 2001 was a great influence on him. In fact, he said that the film motivated him to get into the movie making business. That film was from 1968. But do you remember the themes in that film. Hal 9000 was an AI that became threatened and then decided to kill human beings. Also, Hal 9000 had the bright infrared looking eye somewhat reminiscent of our own terminator red eyes. Something to think about.

http://www.wallpaperbase.com/wallpapers/movie/2001aspaceodyssey/2001_a_space_odyssey_2.jpg"
You bring up some VERY interesting points. Hadn't made that connection before, but can see how Terminator could have been born of Hal - and his red eye - now that you mention it.

I actually read the book back then and wouldn't view the movie unti the early '70's because I didn't think anything could do justice to the visual images I had in my mind.

@ Casesis: Six on BSG is definately one of the hottest babes on TV in ANY genre. And Boomer is so cute you just want to hug her and not let her go. Lena is a fine lady and SG is a ballerina, but it will come down to personal taste, which is always purely subjective.

Oh, and look at the wiki you are ON man!

16.
"Thank you

The Ten minute intro in the Final Five Reveal EP PAWNS the entire run of TSCC. Thats 10 minutes VS 32 eps.

BSG had better writers more dedicated story to telling then wasting time like the TSCC writers, it got its four complete seasons and extra movies and a spinoff called Caprica despite Terminator being the bigger more popular sell.

TSCC is not even in the same league as BSG.

Mark it down kiddies.

:)

And Lena being the hottest chick in the world to me, still can not outhot the combined woman of BSG.

5 babes to 1.

Not good odds for TSCC. "
I'm tempted to agree with you. The writing of BSG was far superior to just about anything that you put it up against, in that it DID take the social message aspect of the Terminator story and expound upon that in interesting ways - while giving us drama, action, cool film shots, and a engaging plot.

But TSCC does has some things going for it: (and these are just off the top of my head mind you - while playing hookey from doing real work...)

1. Cameron is easily the most interesting sci fi TV character since Mr. Spock.

2. Cameron dancing with Derek looking on may be the single most captivatingly "deep" scene ever shot...

3. John looking upon his five year old day in the park on his bday is definately at the top of anyone's craft - for any that know the story, his face tells a story all in inteslf, that spans several decades past, on into the future (both directions) and several movies too!

4. Sarah's pancake quips.

5. Just about anything Cameron said in the beginning of this series was almost an instant classic.

5. Sarah got to be a bad ass at times.

6. Sarah got to go postal at times.

7. CW was deliciously creepy as a LMT playing a human with a human daughter while running a major hi-tech R & D corp.

8. Say what you what about it, the toilet termination has got to be the most original idea on television EVER!

I could go on, but you get the idea. BSG is better overall, but TSCC has it moments. Plenty of them. And TSCC had Jesse who is super hot and Riley IS a hot blonde: if she weren't put in the position she was in going agin Cam/SG fans here would see that and appreciate her (more). Lena only had one spot to look svelte like she did in 300 (the ep with the oriental hi-tech dad and son).4. Sarah's pancake quips.

5. Just about anything Cameron said in the beginning of this series was almost an instant classic.

5. Sarah got to be a bad ass at times.

6. Sarah got to go postal at times.

7. CW was deliciously creepy as a LMT playing a human with a human daughter while running a major hi-tech R & D corp.

8. Say what you what about it, the toilet termination has got to be the most original idea on television EVER!

I could go on, but you get the idea. BSG is better overall, but TSCC has it moments. Plenty of them. And TSCC had Jesse who is super hot and Riley IS a hot blonde: if she weren't put in the position she was in going agin Cam/SG fans here would see that and appreciate her (more). Lena only had one spot to look svelte like she did in 300 (the ep with the oriental hi-tech dad and son).


18.
"Rock on Coach what position do you play in hockey?

1. Cameron does NOTHING for me at all. I could not find myself to be interested in her at all because she NEVER was a Terminator to me.

2. Again I dont think Cameron was a fascinating Terminator at all. That scene to me was more about the horror of how they took Terminator and tried to turn it into BSG, while it was still on the air no less.

3. That was a good enough scene, I'll give them that but those scenes were few and far between. I personally like the 1984 pan back of headstones to Sarah Connor taking that sigh as if to say it will never be over.

4. Sarah Connor was the only interesting thing for me with this show, hotness and badass all together in one tough woman.

5. See 1&2

6 See 4

7. Again she was a cool enough character but the choice to go BSG with her huge problem for me.

8. No, I thought that was ridiculous. The Eye of Jupiter, yeah gonna go with that one. Ander's clearly has a moment where he see's something from his older life and this is way before he was even known to be Final Fiver, it was set up in such a subtle way. Pure brilliance.

Jacobson is hot. Riley is ok, not really my type, but we are talking about Helfer and Lawless and Park, and heck even madame President for the older types, Dee, Cally, Starbuck. For TSCC it really for me was only about Lena.

Overall I am fully aware of BSG not holding the patent for sentience in machines in SciFi. Terminator was a story about man vs machine. TSCC was not about man vs machine. It was about a woman who had a son who didnt want to be a man, a son who was in love with a machine, a son who betrayed all of humanity with machine for machines in the hopes that man and machine could one day be friends and play chess without nukes. I watch T1,T2 and T4 and all I think is how badly this show failed."
You have some strong opinions about TSCC. And no, I'm NOT going to ask you "why are you a fan?" Bc we're ALL fans here!

4. I've been in love with cute pixey Sarah when Hamilton had those lovely lips and big hair and doe eyes - and a fierce intensity driven by balls the size of motherships hovering over several major human cities at once!

7 & 8. Shirley was really cool - even though this was the role she played in her Garbage 007 music video...the urinal scene was uniquely unique - something that few can say they were a part on on TV these days.

Jesse is just FINE, and Riley is VERY "doable." Bro's like the curves! I agree the Prez was very alluring in BSG.

Oh, I still don't have "evidence" that JC was "in love" with Cam. Not gonna go there bc JF set up his scenes to delierately NOT answer this issue. (snob!)

At it's core TSCC - like all T movies - IS a story about man vs. machine; and it should have have that as its basis of operation. That it didn't always do this, and tended to stray from this, is a fundamental reason it missed the mark at times, IMO.

23.
"TT got 14 donuts and Zkyire got 19 donuts just for one message in this thread. The most I've gotten is 12. What does it take to get ahead in this world."
Pancakes. --Only if you've loaded the shotguns: just "to be sure."
24.
@TT: I feel for you, man, tho I am sure you can count the downgrades for your post to get some idea of how THAT went over here!

I used to say some similar stuff, as I am a oldschool fan of SC from T1 7 T2, so I thought I'd see more Terminator with Sarah being a badass and taking on the REST of the world trying to ensure no meatbalss did and end run around CyberDyne Systems and thus create Skynet and thus we have JDay and thus half the world's human beings get fried, etc.

But the fans here are not interested in the T story - or even the TSCC story by and large. They care about JAMERON.

I told someone once that if they made Enter The Dragon a TV show then obviously they can't have Bruce Lee in it so it won't be the same (just like we can't have Arnold in TSCC so it doesn't have as much "punch" or audience draw).

But, would we expect something in the range of a kung-fu action drama? Yes! If we got a dark, slow, introverted emo melodrama that had little to do with the Enter The Dragon movie, and was written more like a soap opera B movie to be seen on the Lifetime (chick) Channel - doing more explanation into the character's "feelings" than their goal to stop Han from taking over the world and killing half the planet to do it (within the next two years no less) wouldn't it create a justifiable uproar/outrage?

I don't see why T fans don't rant more about this (mis)treatment.

The answer is simple: the fans here are TSCC fans, not T fans. They are mostly here through one source SG fandom. They don't KNOW the T story nor do they care about it. The T1 & T2 movies are old hat, boring and yesterday's news. They wonder why WE care about them!

This disconnect is at the core of what has created a rift here on this wiki.


26.
"Coach, you're way off on that score. Please forgive what you may have seen before.

I watched T1 in the theaters, and was blown away by the scientific integrity of James Cameron's movie. Aside from the awful techno-synth sound track, I *still* love this movie. It's a cultural touchstone.

T2, not so much. There were parts I liked. Linda as Sarah badass was great. The LMT is complete hokum: a special effect looking for work. No technology behind it. Sorry but all the thought experiments in the world just haven't convinced me that it's an assemblage of nanites. Plus it broke the time travel rules. Furlong's John with the breaky voice? meh.

So it's possible to love T1 and TSCC. No exclusivity there.

But doesn't the grateful saved Conner have to share intimacy with whatever troubled rescuer comes back from the future? Isn't that canon?"
Like you said, the LMT broke the time travel rules. Thus, even James Cameron broke the T canin - as it suited HIS needs. I berated JF for doing this, but in defense of what came before TSCC, at least it WAS (still) a "sci fi action thriller.

My only real rant is that TSCC didn't give a damn about the clock ticking towards jday which meant half the planets population was going bye bye. These were the only people to possibly stop that, and they were so self absorbed, pre-occupied, and "distracted" - to the point that can get you killed )see JC, SC AND Derek...) that is was almost like the writers had no use for the original T story.

Did they use Terminator as a ruse to really tell the story they THEY were interested in? Seems that way to me. So I keep asking "where's the beef?"

And for the record - even though I liked TSCC too - having a show that went for oner a deason and a half and not knowing what was going on with the plot; and not knowing what the characters were doing or why, sucks.

Every fan here that defends TSCC has never really addressed THIS issue. They have attacked my plenty, and got on me for getting on JF because of it, but the issue itself has yet to be explained.


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There you have it: the basic components of my rant position - snuck into this thread in snipets.

If you want to go more in depth, I suggest you go to my profile and click through to my "Continuity *****'s Must Die" rant page. Link: http://terminatorwiki.fox.com/page/TSCC+Continutity+Whores+Must+DIE%21


Lots there. But again, please don't come with those weak rebuttals if you haven't READ by page, and thus don't KNOW what & WHY I form my opinions on.

And yeah, just giving a "shout out" quickie response is just whack. Or.. are you scared the more you say the more you will expose your weak premise(s)?

Please don't let that deter you, I enjoy enjgaging with TSCC fans, and welcome your "real" feedback!

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