TSCC vs T Overview

TSCC vs. T Overview

Note: the following is in response to a comment/post made by IntrepidVillain Hats off to him bc this caused me to respond with several (what i think are key issues) regarding T and TSCC.

I hope you enjoy them in the spirit in which they are given: I mean no one any amlice for enjoying TSCC or T for that matter.

Here's what he said:

“1) The Sarah Connor Society is a full-blown message board/discussion forum, unlike the one on this wiki which puts a 2,000-character limit on posts. It's far more difficult to write in-depth posts on deep issues. The discussion forum here is more like a trigger-happy blog. You can't change the font in your post, can't include smilies and can only include a single quote. You can't make fancy posts you can be proud of writing. It's all just text.

2) I think there are T-related things even the Lena/Sarah fanatics don't care about. TSCC fans tend to care mostly about the human element of the franchise (ie. Sarah, John, Resistance movement).

For example, a lot of people complained about the first episode of Season 2 where Cameron's chip is damaged. They also complained about the Allison from Palmdale (Cameron crying) and Terminator of the Week episodes. TSCC fans tend not to complain about these things. We've been fairly tolerant of TSCC's faults.

Furthermore, JF's vision for TSCC (a whole season of screw-up humans) was more for the Lena/Sarah than Jameron fans.”

3) What's TPTB?

4) According to some "Terminator fans," TSCC can't be regarded as a "True Terminator" show due to flaws listed in my Comment #2 above. All true T fans by this definition would reject TSCC and consider it fan fiction.

This is why I don't like the label "Terminator fan" because according to this definition, I can't be a true Terminator fan."
Here's what I said in response:

1.) Great point about the limitations of this wki, but it also allows of a lot of diversity - IF we allow it...besides, I don't think readers could stand the loooong post I've been know to generate! lol!

2.) JF took the entire T story off its base, and we've been divided ever since - and don't even know WHY: if you recall, T was about SC and JC trying to stop Skynet from killing half the planet's human pop in just a few years (with no help no less). How much of THAT got put in TSCC? Didn't seem like much of a priority - so it shows that JF didn't REALLY understand the fundamental concepts of what he had. I mean, what could be more important than trying to save the lives of 3 billion people? Where was the URGENCY in what they did? I didn't see much.

However, in contrast, we got great writing from TSCC: including great characters like CW, Derek etc. We got Cam - who no one AJ or shipper would disagree stole the show - and our hearts.

But we also go a series that for most of it the plot didn't move forward and we didn't know what the characters were doing - or why. What we did get was self center in-fighting...as if saving humanity was not as important as their "feeling.: This forced (new, ie TSCC only, not old school T) fans to have to settle for justifying what they got - which was more like a soap opera than anything else (but sold to us as a "family drama." But what happened to this franchise being a sci fi action thriller? Oh, JF changed that when he started writing bc he found out he had cancer...so, feeling sorry for himself he used TSCC to take out his own angst and frustrations: I don't know if this was part of a "healing process or him just being vindictively bitter but whatever it was goodbye "scary killer robots" - and the core fanbase of the franchise.

3.) The Powers That Be screwed the pooch...so much so it became the norm not the exception. T-3 could be looked at as the aftermath of a bad marriage between Hamilton and Cameron - and the new buyers had to put a show on without them (bad idea IMO), but with TSCC and then T$ and the aftermath of all of them we can only look at the body of work as a whole and consider it was thoroughly mis-managed.

4.) I latched on to TSCC bc it HAD Sarah Conners in the TITLE. She's the #8 all time ass kicker - but # IMO behind only Bruce Lee and Arnold...I was hoping they would redeem the series from the mess left by T3 - even though I liked seeing Arnold again and the cute TX.

I AM a true T fan. Old school as I lived through the past 25 years with this franchise. I understand that fans then had a different view in that a war that could wipe us all out meant something to pay careful attention to. Now it does not. So much so it isn't even mentioned. That's what is missing in all of this: new T fans really don't fathom that THIS one aspect IS the central core of the story - so ultimately they don't "get it" and thus real, true T fans don't really "get" them."

We see that they enjoy the story(s) for their entertainment value - and that causes us to look at that viewpoint as "lacking" and "shallow." Not that we don't revel in the fact that there still ARE T fans out there: after all, let's face it -T was always a sci fi fantasy...

...menaing that most guys in the 80's were actually making Arnold an icon for "cool" because he said I'll be back" and then made him an idol bc he wore a shades and rode a Harley to the tune "Bad To The Bone"...

So we have whole generations the were fantasizing about how bad they could be if they were a.) built like that b.) where a scary killer robot (no one would mess with them) c.) could save the world (as we know it) d. every guy and girl would swoon over them.

Make no mistake, this is no less intense or ardent than Glaubot shippers, it is the same thing (in the same franchise no less) in different clothes the product of a different time.

Personally I think it is cute. but I also think far to much is made of pointing fingers and placing blame. Divide we fall: this franchise fallen because of it - at every level.

Response 1 from IntrepidVillain (made at 10:30 PM on 16 May 2010 AEST)
-- a bit long (actually, longer) -- I hope you don't mind.

ChrisCoachKKincey: But we also go a series that for most of it the plot didn't move forward

IntrepidVillain: I initially blamed JF entirely for that, but upon reading some rather insightful articles, I started to believe it was FOX that was responsible for much of the problems in Season 2.

This was something we were discussing over at the TerminatorFiles forum. Discussion stimulates thinking and in one of my posts I reached a point where I was lashing out at Josh Friedman for giving us such a "screwed up" season. That was before I got to the "FOX was also responsible" theory.

The first two articles in the following list are blogs. The last two were what inspired my present view on the aftermath of the show's cancellation. The third is what I consider to be the most plausible theory on the show's demise. The fourth/last is JF's vision.

Boy in the Bubble
One Last Thing from Josh Friedman
Terminator: Sarah Connor Chronicles Canceled a Final Review
Sarah Connor's Story is Really Over Producer Tells io9

This is a list of thread pages in the TerminatorFiles forum where I made various comments about the structure of TSCC and JF's vision.

T:SCC to Continue Late 2010 rumor with T5 Infromation (Page 2)
T:SCC to Continue Late 2010 rumor with T5 Infromation (Page 3)
Terminator Auctioned Off
McG's Currently Prepping T5
The show was cancelled, because...
Would you like to see a movie?

ChrisCoachKKincey: and we didn't know what the characters were doing - or why. What we did get was self center in-fighting...as if saving humanity was not as important as their "feeling.

IntrepidVillain: I remember saying in one of my rants (see above pages) that the characters acted like they were on holiday, that they were derelicting their mission, duty and responsibility. It was like they were on vacation.

I actually liked the idea of a conflict between the characters, but not to the point of it being personal or a soap opera. I was thinking of a conflict over strategy, responsibility and ethics, with each character having his/her own agenda. John would try to protect the machine and justify its existence. Cameron would turn against the humans. Derek would conspire to incriminate and destroy Cameron (and if necessary, kill John in case he turned into a reincarnation of Andy Goode). Sarah would be concerned about John's attachment to the machine but at the same time oppose Derek's aggression against Cameron and John over his sympathies with the machine's cause.

This view I had came from Season 1. It was before Season 2 started airing. I thought of Derek as a very violent man with violent thoughts, so I was surprised that Derek turned out to be quite friendly in the second season. I didn't trust what he did on John's birthday, taking him to see Kyle and buying him an ice cream. It was just part of a ruse.

It was like an instant transformation. He was so hostile in Season 1 and then he turned friendly. I'm like....WTF?

ChrisCoachKKincey: Oh, JF changed that when he started writing bc he found out he had cancer...so, feeling sorry for himself he used TSCC to take out his own angst and frustrations: I don't know if this was part of a "healing process or him just being vindictively bitter but whatever it was goodbye "scary killer robots" - and the core fanbase of the franchise.

IntrepidVillain: I had mixed feelings about this...
>> Pro
I'm thinking JF learnt something from that that he thought he could share with us. :)

Let's suppose I burn out from studying too much at university, suffer a mid-life/identity crisis and experience depression (or both). That might inspire me to write some fan fiction about it. I can imagine Sarah and John going through similar experiences. If you're an American, you would probably know about the veterans from the Vietnam War suffering from mental illness. Imagine Sarah waking up each morning to a purpose she didn't dream of as a young woman. Imagine John waking up each morning in the future war, for fifteen to twenty years, again, to a purpose he never chose for himself.

Mentally, emotionally and psychologically, they would eventually find themselves overwhelmed, perhaps to the point where they feel disoriented. Nothing makes sense anymore. Battle plans fall into disarray. You can't see where the enemy is coming from or you can't figure out why John keeps failing to learn. You go into autopilot mode. You stop planning things. There's no time to think before reacting. You just have to wake up and start fighting straight away or doing whatever you're supposed to be doing. You act on impulse and don't think about what you're doing. You shoot anything that moves.

The problem is when you know you're not functioning at your most optimal level. You're not making the best choices. Your head wants to explode. That's when you start suffering from depression. Your serotonin levels start going down. You feel less and less stimulated. You lose motivation for the most important things. You brain shuts down, mentally, emotionally and psychologically.

I probably wouldn't be bitter if I suffered from depression. Actually, assuming I suffered from the kind above, I'd feel enlightened by the experience. It might be the same with cancer.

>> Con
I think it was almost two years ago that I posted my theory about so-called fantasy men and women in movies -- characters that do incredible, unrealistic, improbable but not humanly impossible things, because it's a movie and not real. They were fantasy people in the sense that they knew what to do at critical times. Kyle defeating the terminator and Sarah almost succeeding in escaping from Pescadero are two examples. Kyle and Sarah somehow got their timing right and acted when the situation was right for their respective "stunts." They knew exactly what to say and do. This wouldn't happen in the real world. They were in the right place at the right time.

It seems the posts no longer exist but I have an archive of them on my computer if you want to see my theories. I could post them on the wiki. Well, here's at least one of them.

Whats your favorite terminator movie?

The characters in Season 2 didn't act like fantasy people. They acted like ordinary people. They didn't impress, they disappointed. I didn't like T3 because John Connor and Kate Brewster didn't behave like my fantasy man and woman. Sarah in T1 was a lady. With Kate Brewster, pardon me with the slander, but she was despicable! She was not decent. She acted immature, like a child. She was supposed to be older than Sarah in T1 but the latter behaved like the older woman.

I guess I wasn't hard enough on TSCC. I was too loving! TSCC was like a pet I really cared about and I didn't want to be angry with it. Well it's now time to be cruel to be kind. Like I said above, Season 2 was a shambles because the characters treated it like a holiday/vacation. It's okay if they do that for several episodes, but for it to happen for a whole season is ridiculous.

ChrisCoachKKincey: with TSCC and then T$ and the aftermath of all of them we can only look at the body of work as a whole and consider it was thoroughly mis-managed.

IntrepidVillain: TS and TSCC were definitely better than T3. T3 was more like a joke/parody about the previous movie. They were genuine attempts to improve on the shambles of the predecessor. They both involved misguided visions.

With TS and TSCC we were learning from mistakes that we couldn't possibly have avoided from looking at T3. Let's hope that if they ever another season, this time it would be near perfect. The writers never really received in-depth, constructive feedback and criticism. Even if they did, it was already too late. It was already in production.

ChrisCoachKKincey: I understand that fans then had a different view in that a war that could wipe us all out meant something to pay careful attention to. Now it does not. So much so it isn't even mentioned. That's what is missing in all of this: new T fans really don't fathom that THIS one aspect IS the central core of the story - so ultimately they don't "get it" and thus real, true T fans don't really "get" them."

IntrepidVillain: I'm part of the younger generation, but couldn't I read that in a history textbook? All you have to do is say two words: "Cold War." If I don't already know, I can read about it. Do I really need to have lived through the Cold War to understand its significance? Basically it's an arms race between the USA and Soviet Union, each building nuclear missiles and warheads aimed at strategic targets on each other's home continents. The fact that I can kill you and you can kill me means that I would be careful not to do anything reckless that could escalate a conflict. It would be mutually assured destruction (MAD).

In the meantime I fight proxy wars against you that don't involve a direct conventional confrontation. I don't try to invade your home territory, but I try to position my armies in strategic locations around the globe in a strategy of encirclement. We make our allies and compete economically so we can outbuild the other. Capitalism vs. communism.

I've had a chance to casually research this over the years and I learnt not so long ago how the USA and USSR actually came pretty close to a nuclear confrontation when the Soviets started installing warheads in Cuba.

The USA and Russian Federation have not gotten rid of their nuclear weapons and Russia remains somewhat antagonistic towards the West. To me it sounds like the Cold War isn't really over. What has changed is the way we think of it. Communism as a top-down economic system has lost favour, but Russia, China continue to be part of an anti-Western bloc.

They have their own allies, including some "Central Asian" countries like Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan, and Uzbekistan that are members of the Shanghai Cooperation Organisation (SCO). What would you make of the Commonwealth of Independent States (CIS)? Russia and China are now making deals with Iran and mingling with the USA's enemies in their hunger for resources. They are conspiring against the U.S., making trade deals with African and Latin American countries like Venezuela.

China has practically replaced the Soviet Union as the USA's supreme antagonist. It is the USA's biggest competitor. A lot of people are pessimistic about China's rise. With the Communist Party still firmly in power, I don't find it difficult to understand why.

We are not getting closer to world peace. The various factions in the world order continue to be at conflict with each other. They view each other with distrust and suspicion. People complain about loss of jobs to developing countries as well as to migrants. When it comes to migrants (ie. USA, European Union), they live in fear of an internal and domestic threat, that one's country is being infiltrated from within by its enemies. The various factions continue to form alliances that may one day lead to World War III.

Look what happened in Georgia recently. Imagine if something like that happened on a larger scale. Do I need to mention Israel and the Middle East? Did anyone expect the attacks on the World Trade Centre?

The "Cold War" to me was just a fancy term to describe a unique political world order with the Soviet Union in power. The world order hasn't ceased to have its divisive and destructive factions. Terrorist groups are just a small part of a complex web of antagonistic, hostile and conspiratorial arrangements.

We've been duped by the post-Cold War propaganda that we don't have to live in fear anymore. Like Tom Paris says in the two-part "Future's End" episode of Star Trek Voyager, it's what TPTB wants you to think. There is a Cold War going on. We're only just putting the pieces of the puzzle together. It's a far more complex one this time.

The destructive and divisive world order factions continue to compete economically against each other as they did during the Cold War. As long as the human race remains divided, the threat of World War III persists. All we need is another Archduke Ferdinand. The Soviet Union is dead but the underlying politics and economics is still there. The Terminator saga continues to be relevant for these reasons.

You don't have to do much research on this. It's in the news. Just turn on your television. It's being reported on daily. Read the newspaper (assuming they still sell them). If you don't get newspapers anymore, there are a lot of insightful political articles online. In the old Cold War, the enemy was the Soviet Union. The new Cold War is one where you don't know your enemy. When you do, it's already too late. Surprise. Boom. Your friends and family are dead.

If I am not a deluded doomsayer, why does this stuff continue to happen? Why is there still war and violence in the world?

ChrisCoachKKincey: ...menaing that most guys in the 80's were actually making Arnold an icon for "cool" because he said I'll be back" and then made him an idol bc he wore a shades and rode a Harley to the tune "Bad To The Bone"...

So we have whole generations the were fantasizing about how bad they could be if they were a.) built like that b.) where a scary killer robot (no one would mess with them) c.) could save the world (as we know it) d. every guy and girl would swoon over them.

Make no mistake, this is no less intense or ardent than Glaubot shippers, it is the same thing (in the same franchise no less) in different clothes the product of a different time.

IntrepidVillain: If people are complaining about the Jameron/Glaubot fanboys, well Arnold has his own fanboys.

TAFs and TF rants

With regards to generations, I've posted before on this -- again somewhere in the TerminatorFiles forum. I said T1 and T2 was made for Baby Boomers and Generation X. T3 was for Generation Y and Z.

Another reason why TS failed - Relevance
Terminator Auctioned Off
the trouble with this film. . .
Why does there have to be a trilogy? (Page 2)
Why does there have to be a trilogy? (Page 3)
What have T3 and T4 contributed?


Response 2 from ChrisCoachKKincey (made at 19:14 on 17 May 2010 EDT)
From Coach K: Intrepid, thanks for your very thought provoking comments. A fellow ranter! If you wish, follow my profile page to my rant pages "Continuity Whores Must Die!" renamed by mods but you'll have no prob finding it.

I'd just like to make a couple comments of my own...

First, I will go through the links and read the posts there. Will take some time, but seems like interesting reading...

Second, I'll be 52 in June. I experienced what resonated with people of that era and what motivated them to view those movies. If you weren't there, mere words can't do it for you, IMO. The fan base of TSCC mostly missed that, so they don't even notice the key core values that are missing with TSCC, and so cannot - and do not - defend them. I also understand their viewpoint of "why do we even need that?" as m son is 26 and we talk often of such matters.

He was born when T1 came out and was a pre-teen when T2 hit, which as cool for the effects but the basis of the story he did not grok, and to this day doesn't care about. I lived thru it and saw HOW this story moved people of the time, and why. Babies don't count (other than not having Skynet butn most of them to a cinder in one day, then send out scary killer robots to hunt down the rest for the next two decades...)

As for JF, he admitted in an article that he changed his perspective on what he was going to write, right before he was going to write it. I think Fox et al got duped too: they had no idea that they were not going to get the Terminator that they thought they were buying (look at the photos and images they put out to sell the show: all Glau and Lena with GUNS cocked, aimed and loaded for ACTION). That is not what we got.

I think this became a nightmare whirl wind of confusion, but my incliantion is to suspect that JF was at the center of this vortex. Fox may have been having knee-jerk corrective measures to what he was doing - or NOT doing what they thought he should. Explains three dots and other plot changes. I thing JF then went off and did some things just because he is very strong willed, such as crazy Sarah arc...

At any rate JF was the showrunner and thus ultimately responsible.

But, just as T3 was a fiasco due to the fallout of key people (craxy- but hey, I love her anyway) Hamilton and Cameron splitting and thus not being involved with the project. Without them, project shouldn't have been done. But they still had Arnold as an asset and figured they'd make money, which they did. And Arnold had an agenda to leverage movie as PR stunt to get name in front of public bc he had political plans to become Guvonator - which he STILL is!

We saw T4 fall off the rails bc of leak of script and gross re-wrtes that were poorly edited.

I think JF set things in motions with changes and never thought about what reactions would be, by Fox or fans. I think he may have felt justified bc of his cancer, and I also think writers and crew may have allowed things to happen that they flat knew were not right as a result of this: no one willing to admit "the Emporer has no clothes."

Now, don't get me wrong, I have lightened my rants on JF since the finale. In his defense I have always said I think the guy is brilliant (so for those that think I am being rude, disrespectful, and mean - and don't take the time to read my LATER rants...) for the record, and I enjoyed the TSCC series. but it had major fundamental flaws that were tactics and elements that were not with what T had been about. It was more of a soap opera in T face than a continuation of the life of Sarah and John after T2 - which is was PROMOTED as: even the NAME is thus MISLEADING...

...that;s MY beef.

I think the show was some of the best writing ON TV at the time (this side of BSG) and Cameron was the most interesting sci fi TV character since Mr. Spock. That's what JF brought, and he is to be commended for that. But he didn't have enough T in the TSCC! Plain fact.

And anyone that did not experience the past 25 years and one billion dollar franchise would have NO idea what I am toalking about. That's kind of a shame, bc a REAL fan of T would have used this series to bring that which IS great about it to a whole new generation. Not to say that is an easy task, but I think JF simply had no interest in even attempting to do that: he was too concerned with telling HIS storyies and blatantly seemed offended that he had to have his stories associated with anything that was Terminator - the very thing bring HIM a paycheck!

I think THAT is arrogant, rude and disrespectful. JF actually came off as if whatever HE had was "better" than Terminator and thus was beneath him or not very much to be bothered with. I guess he also figured T fans wouldn't notice...

...and yes, there are probably a lot of factors attributing to why the fan viewership dropped, but it when from 18 million to less than 3 in less than two years on a major network with one of the biggest and most successful names in entertainment history.

Hmmmm...

Now, lest fans think I am out to attack the show bc it is down understand I LOVE the Oakland Raiders too, but they needed to get rid of the fat, lazy incompetent QB they had (which they did!) and the owner needs to take a step back and hire a REAL GM to run the team.

As this relates to TSCC, just bcause I enjoyed the show doesn't mean I give it a cart blanc pass.


Response 2 from IntrepidVillain (made at 20:30 on 27 May 2010 AEST)

ChrisCoachKKincey: A fellow ranter!.....
IntrepidVillain: I'm not much in the mood for a rant for this second response. I'm thinking it's probably better to go and see if I can have some of my rants on other sites posted here to save unnecessary reworking of my ideas and thinking. On the other hand, it didn't sound like in your reply that you were provoking me into making another rant. I felt a bit understimulated.... :)


ChrisCoachKKincey: Second, I'll be 52 in June.
IntrepidVillain: I'm half your age, roughly equal to your son. I was born a few months before the first movie came out.


ChrisCoachKKincey: If you weren't there, mere words can't do it for you, IMO. The fan base of TSCC mostly missed that, so they don't even notice the key core values that are missing with TSCC, and so cannot - and do not - defend them. I also understand their viewpoint of "why do we even need that?" as m son is 26 and we talk often of such matters.

He was born when T1 came out and was a pre-teen when T2 hit, which as cool for the effects but the basis of the story he did not grok, and to this day doesn't care about. I lived thru it and saw HOW this story moved people of the time, and why. Babies don't count (other than not having Skynet butn most of them to a cinder in one day, then send out scary killer robots to hunt down the rest for the next two decades...)
IntrepidVillain: When I hear people say, "You didn't grow up during the Cold War, so you wouldn't understand," it makes me think about what I must have missed. I've had the opportunity to read a lot of political and military history long before TSCC aired (when people started mentioning the generation gap in forums) and it makes me wonder what they mean. I'm thinking that your son doesn't feel the need to research this stuff because he doesn't log on to discussion forums and post rants and doesn't feel the need to defend a particular point of view.

But anyway, I haven't even met him....

ChrisCoachKKincey: As for JF, he admitted in an article that he changed his perspective on what he was going to write it. I think Fox et al got duped too: they had no idea that they were not going to get the Terminator that they thought they were buying (look at the photos and images they put out to sell the show: all Glau and Lena with GUNS cocked, aimed and loaded for ACTION). That is not what we got.

At any rate JF was the showrunner and thus ultimately responsible.
IntrepidVillain: I remember back before Season 2 started, I actually liked the idea of a less serialised Season 2. I liked the idea of it being like Stargate and Star Trek. Unfortunately, I don't think (after the full Season 2 aired) the less serialised structures of those other two series actually worked for TSCC. TSCC is not a space exploration show. Season 1 established that it was about a struggle to stop Skynet from being built. That was the agenda. It was not supposed to be like exploring the galaxy. You couldn't sit around, lie back and treat it like a holiday like they did in Season 2. Season 2 shot down my theory that making it non-serialised like Star Trek and Stargate was a good idea.

The other idea I had was dissension among the characters. Derek would conspire to destroy Cameron. John would try to protect Cameron. Sarah's stance would be in-between. Cameron would turn against the humans, renounce her mission, but not so much that she wants to kill the humans. The characters would not, however, forget their aim to stop Skynet. They would not stop pursuing it. They would simply have different agendas, different beliefs and ethics.

The writers would have had the opportunity to read about these ideas that I had before Season 2 went into production. If they did read my comments, they would probably have been influenced by them.

However, assuming (hypothetically) that they were influenced by my comments, I didn't expect the writers to turn Season 2 into a holiday/vacation for the characters. If Josh Friedman changed his mind about what he would put in Season 2, I may have had something to do with it indirectly. I heard that the team of writers employed people to "lurk" in Terminator-related boards to see what the fans were thinking, but I don't know how much influence my ideas would have had if they read them (or even if they did).

If they weren't influenced by my comments and didn't notice them at all, I wonder why else Josh Friedman would suddenly change his vision. When did he change his vision? Was it because Season 1 was cut short, leaving a cliffhanger in the season finale? Was it because of demands from FOX?

Josh Friedman can't be held completely responsible for the writing. I believe FOX had a big influence on it. Warner Brothers, for whom JF was working, had a contract with FOX. I remember reading that the high school sub-plot was dumped and replaced by Riley due to demands from FOX. The show was made less serialised due to demands from FOX. There were other reasons why JF might have changed his vision and I don't know when that might have happened.

ChrisCoachKKincey: I think this became a nightmare whirl wind of confusion, but my incliantion is to suspect that JF was at the center of this vortex. Fox may have been having knee-jerk corrective measures to what he was doing - or NOT doing what they thought he should. Explains three dots and other plot changes. I thing JF then went off and did some things just because he is very strong willed, such as crazy Sarah arc...
IntrepidVillain: I have no idea what happened in the board room and therefore no idea how much of the responsibility rests with JF. It could also have been the other way round: FOX made demands, JF felt like he was backed into a corner and a season of killer robots was no longer viable. For example, making the season less serialised meant wrapping up the plot of every episode, leading to Terminator of the Week episodes. To compensate, JF's vision of a season of screw-up humans was the best response he could give. So rather than sabotaging the season, he did more to save it.

The Sarah-centric episodes could have been JF's way of fixing the damage that FOX did to his plans.

ChrisCoachKKincey: But, just as T3 was a fiasco due to the fallout of key people (craxy- but hey, I love her anyway) Hamilton and Cameron splitting and thus not being involved with the project. Without them, project shouldn't have been done.
IntrepidVillain: Actually I think the franchise/saga needs to be able to stand on its own without James Cameron and his team.

I think failures in the movies and TV series have actually got us thinking about how James Cameron's vision worked. This is why I wrote my rants, because I wanted to figure out the secrets behind James Cameron's success. It's almost like James Cameron is some magical, mythical, legendary figure like John Connor himself. Like unto Julius Caesar and Jesus Christ. Isn't it funny they all have the initials J.C.?

(We need to build a time machine and send someone back to 1984 to prevent this all from happening!)

ChrisCoachKKincey: We saw T4 fall off the rails bc of leak of script and gross re-wrtes that were poorly edited.
IntrepidVillain: We can learn from T4.

ChrisCoachKKincey: I think JF set things in motions with changes and never thought about what reactions would be, by Fox or fans. I think he may have felt justified bc of his cancer, and I also think writers and crew may have allowed things to happen that they flat knew were not right as a result of this: no one willing to admit "the Emporer has no clothes."
IntrepidVillain: I don't think JF could have understood all the consequences of the changes he made. I believe FOX had more responsibility and that JF just didn't want to slander a business partner. He wanted to go down quietly.

To make Season 2 better, I think my rant on fantasy men and women would have helped. I would have disliked Season 2's John Connor for the same reasons I didn't like the John Connor of T3. I think what we need is a manifesto on the Terminator saga.

ChrisCoachKKincey: I think THAT is arrogant, rude and disrespectful. JF actually came off as if whatever HE had was "better" than Terminator and thus was beneath him or not very much to be bothered with. I guess he also figured T fans wouldn't notice...
IntrepidVillain: I don't think he was arrogant for doing what he did (not ignoring FOX's contribution). I don't think he would have wanted to disappoint fans and come out and say, "Oh I'm so sorry, I screwed up Season 2!" It would have been a public relations disaster.

ChrisCoachKKincey: Now, lest fans think I am out to attack the show bc it is down understand I LOVE the Oakland Raiders too, but they needed to get rid of the fat, lazy incompetent QB they had (which they did!) and the owner needs to take a step back and hire a REAL GM to run the team.
IntrepidVillain: There is a lot of criticism I would have held back when the show was airing because people wanted optimism to keep the show in business. They wanted to give more people a reason to be supporters of the show. But now that the show is cancelled, we have to understand why it kept losing viewers. Whatever criticism people may have is exactly what we need for the same mistakes not to be repeated in the future.

ChrisCoachKKincey: As this relates to TSCC, just bcause I enjoyed the show doesn't mean I give it a cart blanc pass.
IntrepidVillain: A true patriot isn't afraid to criticise what he loves!


Response 2b from ChrisCoachKKincey (made at 13:56 on 19 May 2010 EDT)
this is some of the email banter between us...

Good! ...and you seem to be pretty good at it.

Unfortunately, we've lost the majority of the audience that needs to SEE this informatation with the show getting nuked.

Most distractors forget the USA was formed by people who questioned things and then ranted about them to make POSITIVE change.

I think this is a very valuable process. Not saying everything is right, but if it is insightful AND causes people to think in ways they had not before, it contributes to a greater whole.

Besides that, something that was very dear to me got screwed over - not the least is Sarah's good name (and since she is a fictional character she cannot defend herself) - so somebody has GOT to pay.

I suspect JF pimped T and SC for his own designs - and really could care less about the fallout from his actions...

Although he brought us some brilliant stuff, truth is this is TERMINATOR so we EXPECT brilliant stuff! We did not expect that the very person that made it happen may be the biggest cause of internal sabotage.

What I don't know is whether this was intentional or unintention. I lean towards the later, but it was just as deadly all the same.

I'm gonna post this on the new rant page: hope you don't mind...

Chris

-- Original Message --
From: IntrepidVillain
To: ChrisCoachKKincey
Sent: May 19 2010, 1:17 am EDT
Subject: RE: My Rant/Response
haven't had time to read your rants . . . I intend to get back to the ranting business

-- Original Message --
From: ChrisCoachKKincey
To: IntrepidVillain
Sent: May 18 2010, 1:07 pm EDT
Subject: RE: My Rant/Response
Verily, a brief respite before yet aother tirade brought by righteousness of epic proportions.

-- Original Message --
From: IntrepidVillain
To: ChrisCoachKKincey
Sent: May 16 2010, 7:40 am EDT
Subject: My Rant/Response
Ah . . . I've spent all day writing my response. It's time to call it a day.


Response 2c from ChrisCoachKKincey (made at 14:03 on 20 May 2010 EDT)
5/20/2010: This was some new rant stuff posted in various threads on this wiki today. I am posting them as I have a new rash of fans emailing me for further clarification on my views - and not all of it is the "where'd you come up with THAT stuff?" variety. Most really "feeL" where I'm coming from (well, some don't) and although they may not feel the same about everything I do, I give a voice to thoughts they've had lingering in the back of their minds for a very long time.

"Well Coach just imagine if the writers and producers of 24 did a full season of tscc !! [ doing it 24 style ] it would be amazing partly because alot would happen never slow down, and at end all questions would have been answered along the way, nothing left behind."
Yep, that's what I'm talking about.

I don't buy for a minute JF's bs about needing to "save" something for "later." This, IMO, is just being lazy. It admits you don't HAVE enough ideas to fill a GOOD show - so WHY hold back a franchise that is one of the biggest names in entertainment, and has a 25 year track record of success?

What, you mean you're not up to the STANDARD that has been set before you?

T has always been rapid fire, in your face, not to subtle about what is happening: you can SEE it clearly - coming at you, not comprising, not left up to interpretation. The T are coming to kill SC and John. Period.

True, there is a LOT more going on - layers of stuff, which is partially what makes the franchise so facinating - but all this is just additional stuff we want to SEE. Meanwhile we KNOW what is going on! The "T" part of the formula was never left out (until TSCC...)

cont.


I'm just gonna go out on a limb and say this, even if it pisses others off:

Whomever attempts to do more with the T franchise PLEASE TAKE HEED...we fans demand MORE than just mindless (and now increasingly trite - bc it has been done before soooooo many times) action. We DEMAND a high quality product that actually is in touch with what we know about the T canon, as if someone actually CARED about it - because THEY were a T fan TOO!

If it dosen't have scary killer robots, it ain't T.

If it doesn't have SC and JC fighting to SAVE humanity NOW AND LATER, it ain't T.

If it ain't a sci fi action THRILLER, it ain't T.

If it doesn't have a "human element" that displays the cruelty of war, our insane addiction to it - and what the consquences of our indulgences can do to ALL of us if and when they get out of hand - PLUS the qualities that can redeem us even when we are at the very brink...it ain't T.

And if ANYONE tasked with saving the world's population and KNOWS they are the only one's that have any real possibility to DO this is written so that there is ANYTHING more important than doing that, WE FANS should rise up and have THEM (those writers) shot! The "why" is simple: WE are the one's Sarah and John are trying to SAVE!

And please, I hope no one feels it is better to be "entertained" while our heroes mull around picking their noses instead of going all out to save OUR asses - as if our asses actually MEANT something: to US!

Hmmmm?

...I'm just saying...


Response 2b/c from IntrepidVillain (made at 21:30 on 27 May 2010 AEST)
ChrisCoachKKincey: Although he brought us some brilliant stuff, truth is this is TERMINATOR so we EXPECT brilliant stuff! We did not expect that the very person that made it happen may be the biggest cause of internal sabotage.
IntrepidVillain: Terminator fans can be pretty stubborn. They have high expectations because of the first two movies. Adding to the saga isn't just a matter of making a good "addition." It has to impress the hardcore fans. When these fans start complaining, you start losing the audience. For every complaint they make, there is probably another hundred thinking the same thing who don't log on to the forums at all.


ChrisCoachKKincey: True, there is a LOT more going on - layers of stuff, which is partially what makes the franchise so facinating - but all this is just additional stuff we want to SEE. Meanwhile we KNOW what is going on! The "T" part of the formula was never left out (until TSCC...)
IntrepidVillain: TSCC explored the saga in ways that T3 didn't. T3 didn't explore the meaning of humanity or the idea of AI having a soul (or not). It didn't explore the humans' antagonistic relationship with the machines. I preferred TSCC over T3 because T3 didn't really explore the saga's implications in much depth at all. The only significant message T3 seemed to have was that the apocalyptic future was inevitable. It had a very crude way of conveying that message.


ChrisCoachKKincey: Whomever attempts to do more with the T franchise PLEASE TAKE HEED...we fans demand MORE than just mindless (and now increasingly trite - bc it has been done before soooooo many times) action. We DEMAND a high quality product that actually is in touch with what we know about the T canon, as if someone actually CARED about it - because THEY were a T fan TOO!
IntrepidVillain: Like Derek Reese once said, we need to fix all mistakes and I think a way to do that is to write up a manifesto on what the saga means and represents. It seems that not everybody has thought deeply about its implications. Not everybody received the stimulation required to trigger such thinking. I got the stimulation from discussion over at the TerminatorFiles forums and I am grateful for the complaints people made.


Without a manifesto, I don't think people can expect the kind of reforms that they have been demanding. Without a manifesto, Terminator fans have no vision to put the saga back into a position of respect and therefore nothing with which to reform the saga/franchise.

Saga reform is like social/political reform. It requires good direction and leadership. Unfortunately, nobody has yet proposed a reasonable, viable and wholesome philosophy to return the saga to its former glory. TSCC was a "good" show but it wasn't good enough for the hardcore fans. The writers failed to please that clique. Future additions to the saga need to please that clique.

Different forums and message boards dedicated to the saga have their respective cultures. I don't hang around on just one forum, so I have had the chance to see different forum cultures. The people who lurk and post on TerminatorFiles are a particularly nerdish/geekish bunch who like to see the saga in nerdy and geeky terms.

TSCC fans who are just TSCC fans and not general Terminator fans tend to think of TSCC only in terms of the show and its characters and not the saga in general.

From IV (via PM): I'm not sure if posting our PMs is always a good idea, PMs being private messages. Luckily all the PMs were rant-related anyway.


Thanks.

I will read it after the Lakers game...

BTW, won't post all PMs - just the ones I think add value to the rant info: fans need to know HOW we arrive at our viewpoints, and what we base our opinions on, don't you think.

Otherwise, JF, SG and AEM will come by this wiki and come away thinking we are just a bunch of half-crazed crackpots.

I do not believe this is true. I think we make some very good arguements (based on the facts we have or can infer - but we may never know the REAL truth): certainly we give cause to make it plausible to look further into these matters.

At the very least we give people a little sumthin' to THINK about.

Not sayin' we are (always) right, but until we can do our own productions (and thus be under the microscope ourselves) this will have to suffice...

More pages